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“And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.”
--God
Read of Rader's pastor's soul-stirring courage
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19 comments:
when did Jack Nicholson get arrested?
Not really funny considering that this degenerate freak, Dennis Rader, is the BTK murderer that terrorized the Wichita, Kansas area starting in 1974. Rader, who served as president of his Lutheran church as well as Boy Scout leader, called himself BTK for "Bind, Torture, and Kill" in his disturbing correspondences with the Wichita Eagle-Beacon in which he gloated about his murders. He killed 10 people, but specifically targeted women, 8 of which he tortured and killed for perverse sexual gratification. I support his abortion.
i couldn't agree more. This is where cruel and unusual punishment should not only be legal, but encouraged. This guy makes me sick to my stomach.
Well, I can appreciate your anger, anon, I, too, share your passionate desire for justice. But the abortion of Dennis Rader should not be about vengeance, as God also said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay". Rather, the abortion of Rader is a godly action because our government authorities legitimately found him guilty of 10 murders, and capital punishment upholds the value of those lives that were taken. It's not about vengeance, but justice.
Because Kansas was morally impotent and had no death penalty at the time of the murders, Rader got life in prison. I pray he would submit to the love of Jesus while locked-up. But anyone with a biblical understanding of the value of life would desire him executed.
"But anyone with a biblical understanding of the value of life would desire him executed"
I am definately a proponent of the death penalty, but the breadth of the above comment is far too broad. The Old Testament is filled with verses supporting the use of capital punishment, but the New Testament is far more broad in its granting of authority to governing bodies. The New Covenant does not REQUIRE governing bodies to use capital punishment at all.
Romans 13:1 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."
Governing authorities are given broad discretion (granted God-appointed) as to their punishment actions.
Anon, I don't follow your explanation of how the New Covenant establishes this "broad discretion" that you speak of. The verse you listed does not support your conclusion.
Secondly, regardless of how the State rules, a follower of Christ still longs for justice and anticipates the hour when God brings about a new heaven and earth absent of evil. What other reaction could one born into new life with Jesus have when confronted with the facts of the BTK murders but to desire Rader killed?
while the desire of justice for this man is righteous and non-negotiable, i also believe a follower of Jesus should wrestle in their heart with forgiving this man.
it is easy for us to look at Rader and just wish him dead and think nothing more of him, but we must remember that while the man's sin demands his life be accounted for, we still are called to grace for this man. can i forgive a man who has done horrible acts of sin just as a God has forgiven me for different horrible acts of sin? grace is not limited to how bad a sin is.
now, i'm not sure if i'll be able to actuallly love this man and forgive him, but i believe that i am called to wrestle with attempting that.
conclusion: i'm fine with justice falling on the man because of his sin, but i believe we should love the man despite what he's done. so i'm not really disagreeing, just making an addition.
>>What other reaction could one born into new life with Jesus have. . . but to desire Rader killed?<<
i would much rather see him come to know Christ. i oppose human imposed abortion in all instances.
"Because Kansas was morally impotent..."
Nice read on KS spinelessness there.
It's important not to confuse "forgiveness" and "love" in instances like this. Our ability to forgive this man is limited, seeing as how we've been affected in merely peripheral ways - and human forgiveness never extends to moral absolution. Forgiveness recognizes evil and does not attempt to take personal revenge for the consequences one subsequently experiences.
We're called to love Rader though - and I might love Rader perfectly and still lobby for his death.
bensheets, thanks for the welcome addition. It was an edifying angle to throw in, and a great challenge to me.
pepperdeaf,
>>i would much rather see him come to know Christ. i oppose human imposed abortion in all instances.<<
Fascinating. The holy desire to both see Rader executed and for him to repent and believe in Jesus are not conflicting hopes, as you seem to believe. In reality, they are together the sanctified man's response to the situation.
If Rader was on Death Row, he would be afforded quite the unique luxury of knowing the exact hour of his death. In terms of circumstances that compel men to ponder who God is, what possible scenario could better provide the impetus for Rader to turn from his evil and beg God to save him?
The other unavoidable pertinent truth is that God's rescue of individual souls is never hampered by mere time. It's certainly not as if God somehow needs Rader to live longer so He can work out his salvation.
Ari-El,
Keen explanation of forgiveness and love, thanks.
>>what possible scenario could better<<
i could never support telling someone i was going to kill them in x amount of time in order to motivate them to dedicate their life to Christ. force is never a righteous manner of promoting conversion.
>>unavoidable pertinent truth<<
God has already worked out the salvation, but Rader must accept it.
"In terms of circumstances that compel men to ponder who God is, what possible scenario could better provide the impetus for Rader to turn from his evil and beg God to save him?"
Precisely.
Thanks for a thought-provoking post, not to mention the right-on analysis.
pepperdeaf,
>>i could never support telling someone i was going to kill them in x amount of time in order to motivate them to dedicate their life to Christ.<<
Once you narrow your frame of the issue to such a misleading portrayal, it's easy to make the wrong conclusion. What you've done is ignored all of Rader's murders, the consequences of the murders, the families left to grieve, the community torn, a society victimized, etc. and narrowed the issue to you and someone, and then you state what you would never do to that unknown someone. It's much the same as seeing a pastor pushing a Lexus. By refusing to broaden my scope to does he serve God in love, what jobs he held prior to being a pastor, is he generous in giving, did a church member loan him the car, etc., I can easily declare, "I could never support a pastor who drives a nice car", pass on his thriving ministry, and feel great about it.
>>force is never a righteous manner of promoting conversion.<<
I may just be suffering from colonialism, but I know of no other event as forceful as the Holy Spirit wrenching a soul free the gravity of depravity.
Less relevant is that an execution does not have to be forceful. If the convict doesn't cooperate, then force will be used in response to his rebellion to justice. But it can be as gentle as a unhurried walk down a hallway, and a calm seat in a chair.
>>God has already worked out the salvation, but Rader must accept it.<<
This may be the crux. Unless one acknowledges God's sovereignty, there is no chance of understanding why believers should embrace capital punishment. The truth if God has chosen Rader, Rader will be saved. If God hasn't, Rader will not. We have no way of knowing if God already worked out his salvation, but we should pray for it.
>>What you've done is ignored. . .<<
ignoring would be seeking no punishment in this situation. this is not my position. i clearly support a life sentence; i simply do not support killing this man as repayment for what he has done, because it serves no benefit that a life sentence would not.
>>Unless one acknowledges God's sovereignty,<<
acknowledging God's sovereignty would not be ending a man's life based upon human perogative. it would be believing that God's judgment is sufficient punishment and that we need not do anything more (including hastening God's judgment).
i am still uncertain how you can love someone (looking at 1 Cor 13) and still premeditate their killing. love stems from our desire to see another improve, thrive, grow closer to God. . . the act of killing seems contrary to this.
>>ignoring would be seeking no punishment in this situation. this is not my position. i clearly support a life sentence...<<
The advocacy of a life sentence still does ignore and devalue the lives of those who have been murdered, as well as the victims' families' righteous demand for justice. One way to gauge a society's priorities is by their penalties.
Acknowledging God's sovereignty means not being afraid of undertaking decisive, irrevocable action. Humanistic cultures shy away from capital punishment because it is an absolute act that existentialism cannot bear.
>>hastening God's judgment<<
More language that reflects an unbelief in God's sovereignty and omnipotence.
>>love stems from our desire to see another improve, thrive, grow closer to God. . .<<
Love certainly does not stem from our desire to see another do anything at all. We love because God first loved us, period. But even this isn't the origin of love, as love existed between the Godhead before the Creation.
I Corinthians 13 says nothing to contradict the administration of the death penalty. The civil government does not bear the sword in vain.
>>still does ignore and devalue the lives<<
i still don't understand. how can we say it is wrong to kill people because human life is precious and then turn around and kill someone else? all life is either precious and worthy of protection or it is not.
it is like punishing a spouse who committed adultery by turning around and committing adultery yourself. this does not right a wrong, but simply creates two wrongs.
if we truly want to show that we value life, we should fight to protect even the most repulsive ones.
>>One way to gauge a society's priorities is by their penalties.<<
this is definitely one of those things that the u.s. has in common with iran, iraq, afghanistan, china, north korea, etc.
>>how can we say it is wrong to kill people because human life is precious...<
It is not wrong to kill people in all situations. It is wrong to murder people. There is a difference. The State has the authority to kill people.
>>it is like punishing a spouse who committed adultery by turning around and committing adultery yourself.<<
Capital punishment is nothing like this. An individual is never permitted by God to commit adultery. Most of the time, individuals cannot kill legally. But the government does wield this authority to kill as a consequence for murder.
>>...the u.s. has in common with iran, iraq, afghanistan, china, north korea, etc.<<
Clever, but unsubstantial. The half-truths that undergird these countries' ideologies intrinsically have some merit (half-truths). They are somewhat correct to despise the West for its decadence, moral relativism, sexual idolotry, cowardice, secularism, etc. Their overall sense of justice is distorted, but it's no surprise that in some areas these countries see more clearly than France, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc.
>>i still don't understand<<
>>God has already worked out the salvation, but Rader must accept it.<<
>>we need not do anything more (including hastening God's judgment)<<
>>love stems from our desire to see another improve,...<<
With all due respect, I'm afraid your inability to understand is consistent with the rest of these statements. Without accepting God who gives and takes away at His divine pleasure, without a biblical worldview, without seeing salvation as one of God's means rather than God's end, it is impossible to apprehend the steady beauty of justice, including the death penalty.
That being said, reconciling the mercy and judgment of God is far more important than the issue of execution. This is the benefit of wrestling with tough concepts; they often point out gaps in our view of God, like trying to establish a level 3rd story floor can reveal cracks in the foundation.
How can you criticize anything if you belief that God ordained everything? Meaning, if Kansas did not have the death penalty, then your view says that is exactly what God has ordained. So, doesn't it seem prideful to criticize anything that God has set into place?
"human forgiveness never extends to moral absolution"
And is Ariel saying that we are not called to forgive this man? And you agree with his "keen" explanation somehow.
Matthew 18:21-22, Matthew 6:14-15
Anon,
When discussing God's sovereignty, it's best not to try to simplify.
First, it's difficult to respond to you because I don't really know how you are using the word "ordained".
Are we talking about God's general sovereignty over the whole world? Are we talking about God's specific intention with a specific action? Are we talking about God's desires?
Unfortunately, there is no way I could completely unravel the web of western secular humanism that affects us all and taints our view of the truth, and I cannot completely explain how righteousness and unrighteousness can co-exist under God's Sovereign Will and how all will ultimately Glorify God and conclude by explaining the role of man in this eternal equation. So I will offer only a few comments.
No one can criticize God for what happens on earth, because he is working towards His own Glory, and everything will eventually bow to God and we will all say, "Wow, I didn't really get it at the time, but it worked out exactly as it ought." However, just because God is able to use a man's sin to bring himself Glory, does not mean we should commend the man.
So, even though everything God does/establishes/ordains/directs/allows will be turned to His Glory. The actor is still culpable for his/her actions.
So, Kansas will ultimately glorify God. But in the meantime we have received instruction how to be righteous. If Kansas is not acting righteously, be it by administering the death penalty or not administering the death penalty, it is up to Christians to correct that behavior. If God doesn't want the behavior corrected because He has some alternate plan, it is still Kansas which is in the wrong and the Christians that are in the right.
We follow God's commands as best we can, and we leave the outcomes up to God.
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